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tv   MSNBC Live With Kate Snow  MSNBC  December 29, 2016 12:00pm-1:01pm PST

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that wraps up our breaking news coverage at this hour, craig melvin picks things up right now. >> thank you very much jacob soboroff, we continue of this breaking news of united states directing by president obama announcing of russia's alleged spe interference election of our election and naming individuals specifically for their roles in all of this and expelling 35 russia diplomats from the united states. we have our guests today and we are lining up to digest all of these news. hans nicolls remaining at the pentagon for us. break news actions down for us and what's being done here. >> think of it in three parts. one is the retaliation against four individuals and interfering and direct and medaling of the
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election that just happened. the second part has to do with harassment of u.s. diplomats in russia. that's what it seems of the 35 expulsions declaring of the 35 diplomats here in the state from russia. and the back end of it, there is a little bit of a defense and there is a clear csigma phi epsil epsilon -- and helping u.s. cyber security firm protecting america institutions and individuals. it gives you a reminder of ronald reagan and a bear being in the woods.
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grizzlies' steps what i say they are calling it. >> i won't attempt to pronounce some of these men. what do we know about these four men? >> they are all associated with the g ru. we ha gru. all four of them are involved. o he's the one that we had the fbi poster from. he was involved allegedly in some cyber mouth phases, he was indicted in nebraska and that's where they brought tg case forward and allegations is up to 100 million loss property. he's been in the fbi's list for some time. the reward for him is $3 million. >> to be clear that picture, that's one of the gentlemen named. we did not have pictures of the other three. >> what are these agencies and
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what do they do? >> we are going to have to come back on that of institutions and what their i mplications are. i have to do a little me digging before i get a precise answer on that. >> we'll come back and stick around hans nicolls if you can. let me bring in tammy leitner here with president obama on vacation there in honolulu. lets talk about how we got to this point and have we heard of anything new from president obama out of all of this? >> hey, craig, as you know this did not happen over night. we know that president obama had multiple conversations with putin and warning russia not to do this. our presidential election was hacked back in october. russia was responsible for the
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hacks a f hacks. before that, there was an exec ti exec -- the one thing that's becoming clear is that the obama administration is committed to proving that russia was responsible for this in coming days and weeks. they'll be providing intelligence reports to congress and in the next 30 minutes we are expecting to get a little more information, we have an interview set up with someone from the white house where we are here in honolulu. back to you >> when you have that interview, let us know, we'll come back to you. kasie hunt also is standing by for us. i know you have been tracking reactions from members of congress, what are we hearing from them and speaker ryan, have you heard anything? >> we have, we got quick reactions to this less than an hour of the obama administration, speaker paul ryan essentially is taking the opportunity to criticize the obama administration and their
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overall foreign policy towards russia. at the same time calling the sanctions themselves over due and not criticizing this action against russia. you can see the statement on the screen, russia does not share america's interest. consistently sought to under mind them so dangerous instability across the world. today's action by the administration is over due. it is an appropriate way he says and eight years of russia is a primary sample of this administration and also, it made america weaker in the eyes of the world. no real disagreement with the actual actions that were taken. the other statement i want to point out to you is senator chuck schumer, he's the in coming democrat minority leader. we need to punch back against
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russia and punch back hard. i hope the in coming trump administration which has been far too close toussia throughout the campaign won't think about one second weakening these sanctions or our existing regime. that sets up our debate here. we are going to see it emerge and especially among republicans. democrats are going to be unified in wanting to respond to this. of course, a lot of them view this hack as having damage to hillary clinton. there is no reason from a political perspective for that and not to worry about. the trump administration viewed this as an attempt to mind or cash out on his election's victory and his win. that put him at odds with some key republicans who have focused quite a bit on these issues that have been historically national
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security cox. not just on hacking but on a host of other issues. the in coming administration is going to decide early on, do we want to roll back these sanctions that are in place and that called cause quite a stir or are we going to levave it in place? craig. >> kasie hunt, standby, i want to come back to you. >> matt bradley is in london for us, matt, first of all, did russia responded to any of these? >> well, craig, we are starting to get the steady drip, drip, drip, outraged reactions from members of the government. we had have the foreign ministry, they says this is counter productive and it will
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damage the russian of ties between the you shall srussia a. so much that we are receiving that we heard the last several days from russian politicians and it goes to show how deeply personal this division is. they're not against economic sanctions. they are individual diplomats. these are all square ari ly in round of diplomacy and intelligence worth. some of the statements we heard accused the obama administration of being bitter and being angry that they lost the election and casting out with political and in order to make excuses for population. now, this might seem strange to an american audience but it works for russian audience and works for vladimir putin for so many years. but, because it is sanctions
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that he been by the united states for other reasons because of the annexation by crimea and now there is this tone that's worked for putin so well in casting themselves as a champion of the east against the west. as a champion of the strong man against obama sort of weak minded weak will democracy. that's what putin is trying to project to his people and it is hugely successful and even if the russian population loses their money and becoming more impoveri impoverished? any other responses from around the world? >> we have not heard anything official from other countries or social media, we have not had any strong reactions from thank you -- from the eu state. >> matt bradley, we'll come back to you.
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>> fred is joining us now via skype, again, we have not gotten an official response from kremlin yet. assuming when it comes to these 35 diplomats being expelled, is it reasonable to expect that there will be a san francisc-- have 35 americans ex ppel from russia. >> this is mathematically predicted. this reminds of a big, cold war mass expulsion and there is issues where you would get large number and soviet diplomats expelled and they would retaliate with the same number
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of identical posts. it is all -- someone has calulatca calculated the way to do this and you watch it unfold. this is the biggest and i have been in moscow since 1986. i think there was a big one in the late '80s but i cannot remember an episode like this in the interim. this is a huge deal. it will result in a mass expulsion on the russian side and other retaliatory measures as well. >> do you know anything at all fred fr fred, of these four individuals who have been named by the state department? >> no, i don't. i think they'll have and as they do on both sides they have lists of diploma people who are considered to be intelligence people or involved in activities
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that go beyond their diplomatic status. they'll definitely have this and russians will have their own list and they take it. >> the entities of the main intelligence director and special technology centered and security, do we know anything more about those entities? >> yeah, these are - you just listed the main russian intelligence agency and the last one, i guess is some kind of front group for intelligence or who are considered by u.s. intelligence or perhaps to be involved in some kind of hacking activities. the first three were definitely
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all major kremlin, central intelligence agency. >> i know we are waiting from response from the kremlin. i know before midnight there where you with in moscow, are you getting any sense in the ground and how all of this is going to play there? >> no, obviously not. we are almost three years into this crisis. there is been so many rounds of sanctions and so we already know that the way russians react to it which is defiance and economic data of the past six months or so suggests that despite all the sanctions russia is come out of its recession and its economy is in serious trouble and there is problems, they expect to return to economic growth next year even with this sanction wrapped around their neck.
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i don't think -- first of all, i have not seen any signs. now, economic data suggests there is no reasons for you, too. >> franked weir in moscow for u. thank you for that insight. >> i want to go back to hans nicolls. are you still with me again? >> sorry, throw me the question again. >> these two facilities that are being shut down. what are they and how significant are they? >> we don't know and that's what we are trying to figure out. there maybe some footage and all we know from the state department and -- they are facilities owned by the russian government. we know the russians bought a
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resort come papound. that's the one that the state department is talking about. what are they doing with these kpo compounds? >> so to have services for their citizens. a lot of times you don't want to make them go downtown to the actual embassy. the u.s. does that as well. it is not all house in the embassy. the one resort they bout in and out the eastern sore and they may brought back -- we'll get more on that. >> hans, as you are speaking there. we manage to get some pictures there. i believe this is a live look at one of these compounds in maryland, you just talked about this. >> this is an areal view. i am not going to pretend like we know what this is, craig. >> i am not entirely certain and
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kr correct me if i am wrong. we don't know if this compound is the one that the state department mentioned. we know they bought this compound in 2007. i know the caution that's making this directly and this is the one that's shutting it down. >> it appear that is we got 27 rooms. as little information of the compound. it is in a lovely park of maryland. craig. dc is telling us that's the one in chester town, maryland, these t diplomats are being expelled. they got to get out within three days. there are 35 of them. remember the richard hanson fbi, big scandal in the early 2000s. at that point, 50 diplomats have
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been expelled. it gives you an indication oaf how serious it is. in my reading of this and i have gone through a couple of times now that the expulsion of the russian diplomats is more to do of retaliation of u.s. diplomats working in russia. it is all part of the context of this broader package on a cyber response, those 35 expelees -- >> there is a look at what's happening the last hour and a half. we'll take a quick break and we'll come back. what president-elect trump is saying about all of this. how much of it will be done come january 20th. this is msnbc, we'll be right back. disinfecting products. because no one kills germs better than clorox.
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back to our top story, here is a look at the executive in order in part expelling 35 russian diplomat in the country closing two compounds in maryland and new york for senior officials, adding cyber defense tools to u.s. companies. i believe we have a live picture here in maryland of one of the compound, one of the russian's compound that's being shut down.
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two compounds again, one in new york and one in maryland. this is chester town, maryland. we are learning more precisely of what went on here. we can tell you that the diplomats are being expelled have 72 hours to get out of the united states. also, four individuals have been named, two of vladimir and signatu surrogate. and one of them have been on the fbi most wanted list for some time now. five entities also being named by the state department. the main intelligence director and the federal security service and special technology center and source security and a data processing system as well. with me now, washington post national political reporter, robert costa, and also with me,
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jew julie-anne smith a. let me start with julie-anne, i understand that you just got off the phone with the white house, what did they say? >> well, they were out lining what was happening today and all the measures that they are taking. i think they feel like this is a very strong signal that they're sending to president putin and it will have ramifications not only for putin but other nations that tries to interfere in our elections. there are measures being taken. he's changing, president obama, the executive order to ensure that any countries that tries to interfere in our election in the future or any election in the future including those of our
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allies, we'll have additional measures at our disposal to go after that country. there are measures in specifically in regards to what russia has done and preparing itself and safe guarding itself against any future attacks against itself or its allies. >> did you get a sense at the white house that they are in any way concern or part of this is -- and come january 20th. >> nobody knows what's going to happen once trump gets in the oval office. based on what he said, recent months putin gives many of us concerns. i don't know whether or not this sanction will stick once he get into office. the real challenge is he will have to assume and want to roll back the sanctions, he would have to prove that we have seen
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some change in russian behavior that they responded to what we laid out here today, i think what will be tough for president-elect trump will be to persuade the american public and our allies and the u.s. congress that in fact russia has shown some interests and changing its behavior. we are not going to be able to show that any time soon. what we are going to face is increasingly aggressive russia. they'll move forward with retaliation measures of some kind. i think it will be extremely difficult for president trump to say that he's going to roll back everything that's been outlined lie the white house today. >> robert costa is here with me, you have spent a fair amount of time with the president-elect trump. you know last night he had this brief q and m wi&a reporters wh about hacking, he said "we
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caught to get on with our lives." >> he's called the action by the administration. he was critical of the obama policy with regards to russia. he agreed with the way this is being handled. trump and his people are trying to build a relationship with russia and having a different world view with regards to how russia is seen in the world. they are useful to the u.s. and how it negotiates trades around world and having a different dynamic with china and other nations they're dealing with. >> we have a lot to look at
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here. that's a russian embassy there. not a lot of great deal of activities there. there is a look at the embassy gates. >> robert, lets talk about some of these measures again. i think it is worth noting and worth pointing out that this is what they are telling us they are doing. is it safe to assume that there is a fair amount that's also being done in terms of cyber attack perhaps, that we are not going to know about? >> i don't think it is safe to assume. really, what we a talking about is some signals sending to putin to say here are the actions and here are what we we are taking so far and if you try to retaliate these activities. for us, would look like lets put this back in the box and set a
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possibility that the trump add minute -- administration. >> so what president obama has done here is what i think would call a proportional response. he has escalated in a way that is considered a hostile act or an ak ct of war. he's not using any military measures outside of space. you can see escalation in the future if he response in a way, if putin response in such a way where he's escalating. where he's stepping things up in cyber space or out of cyber space. >> so far, we have not seen anything like military movement or exercises or moving ships into the sea or other areas but we can see that. >> if you can standby for me.
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i want to bring in our foreign correspondent, andrea mitchell, is joining me on the phone now. you just got out of the white house briefing, right? >> basically, they are saying that they know that president-elect trump signalled on wednesday saying that, he thinks that we should move on of what is happening. he says the president approach -- that's one president at a time. president obama feels that he need to expedite his duty until january 20th. they have to leave by noon on sunday. that's leaving them 72 hours to get out of the country.
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that's all reciprocated and we have to accept our own diplomats are going to be kicked out. this is no tt a pattern of normal -- in fact, this is an unprecedented level and not seen since the cold war era in the last two years. and also, shutting down two locations, one in new york and one in maryland -- are used for other recreational purposes. these are two locations that'll be shut down and not available to any russian employees or embassy members who are diplomats and are still remaining in the state. that's getting personal. they are elireleasing details t anti-viral company here to corporate america and letting
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them know how to trace russian entries and trying to help respond against the very sophisticated hacking by the russians. they say this is is -- ununiversally accepted. >> it was the russians that it was at the highest level of russia which means vladimir putin. there is a lot of democrats in the clinton camp who feels they should have been aggressive and done this sooner. they really are taking steps, they think if i could read into or infer from the callers, they are taking steps that'll box in donald trump and how easily will it be undone when asked of donald trump and the new administration pointing to their signals did not agree with that.
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will they reopen those russian facilities? it would be difficult for the president-elect trump or any american president to reopen spy facilities to let spies back in the country and the american business suffered hundreds of millions of dollars damage of this. certainly not be happy to know that the president of the united states is supporting russian intelligence. it is clearly not easily to reverse. >> andrea mitchell, correspondent off of a call there of the white house government agency, andrea, thank you, as always, we are at the half hour and a little bit past the half hour. lets reset and bring you up to speed for viewers and listeners who maybe joining us. a short time ago, it was announce that had the united
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states at the request of president obama would be retaliating against russia, retaliating specifically against several individuals and also expelling 35 russian diplomats. they have until noon, sunday, to get out of the united states and shutting out two compounds in new york and maryland. those compounds are being described by sources asterisk creational. here is a live look on the live side of the russian embassy there on washington, d.c. on the left side is the facility in maryland, chester town, they are in the process of being shut down. four individuals are being named. we have a picture of one of them have been on the fbi's list for
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a long time. there is the fbi picture there. tom winter, our investigative reporter is with us now. i understand you got more information on that one guy that we just showed there of the hacker wanted by the fbi. >> if he is also known as lucky 12345 in court documents and the papers released by the white house today. he's been identified by papers and nbc news confirming this person had been wanting previously. he was on the fbi's most fugitive list. he's no longer on that list but he's still wanted by the fbi. he was indicted of the case out in the western district of pennsylvania in 2014, 14 counts. he was tied to a fishing scheme and obviously, we are not talking about fishing that you would do at the lake. were talking about fishing you
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would do with e-mails. this person was identified as one of the hackers that was involved of what we see with the election and john podesta and whether he was tied to podesta's hack, we don't know and we don't have that information at this point. it is not worthy to show that it was that scheme he was indicted for 2014. in addition, hefrs char was chaa case of omaha, nebraska of a criminal complaint involving a scheme to defraud according to the documents and a scheme to defraud 12 u.s. banks. so this person has been on the fbi's radar. >> for quite sometime. >> that activity went back to 2009. this individual we know for certain that he was named today obviously and he's on law enforcement radar for some sometime and more computer type crimes and that type of thing.
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this is somebody that knows what he's doing and been doing it for some time. we believe that he's in russia and obviously, even if relations were better, the u.s. have no extradition agreement with russia. snowden he's been there for several years now. there would normally not a way to give him back and given the tension of the fact that he's been named as part of this political hacking or this election hacking that we don't expect to see him back any time soon. >> lucky 12345. >> this is one of the four guys. again, according to our investigative unit, tom winter here. >> this is an individual known to law enforcement in this country for some time. i know you guys are pouring other documents. as you get more of one of these guys, come back.
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thanks for that. new information on one of the four names. hans nicolls are still standing by for us. some clarifications on the diplomats now sanctioned by the united states given 72 hour to leave the country, why? >> the state department thinks they are spy and tiesspies. these 35 officials are acting in consistent with their diplomatic and roles. it is a nice way of saying they have been spying here. earlier you showed a picture of the russian embassy. you know it is a staple of both state craft and spy craft. we know that's true in our own country. ray davis, he was the cia contractor in pakistan who in 2011 shot up some folk
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folks -- excuse me, my phone is ringing here. one quick note on this. usually if you expel diplomats, there is a tic for tac. if you are a cia agent working in russia, you are not going to spend the whole time. you may be home. >> i am going to let you answer that phone call. han hans, thank you, we are just getting this in. a spokesperson says that moscow regrets the new u.s. sanctions and is considering retaliatory measures. that's the first word coming from russia. we'll take a quick break. when we come back, more reactions to the sanctions right after this. this is msnbc. ♪ see ya next year.
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back to our breaking news right now. expelling some 35 russian diplomats giving them 72 hours to leave the united states. i spoke with our correspondent hans nicolls saying they are given 72 hours to leave. those were facilities that were recreational that was used by these russian diplomats. i am joined by bloomberg news,
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reporter, jake, i understand that you just got off the phone with president putin's press secretary, is that right? >> yes, i just got off the phone call with putin's spokesperson. >> and he said what? >> he calls these sanctions aggressive and destructive. the russian reaction maybe a little bit more delegate than otherwise because they want to get off on the right foot with trump and they are clearly taking the fact that trump is going to be in office for three weeks and consideration before doing anything. did you get from the press
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secretary where the response is something done sooner or something that's going to be done later. so they obviously were expecting some sort of reactions. i think it will be at least tomorrow. the time frame when they may make up their mind. >> did the press secretary given any indication when we might hear or if we may hear from russia's president on any of the this? >> no, he did not. putin always gives a new year's address, so the latest that we'll hear is on the 31st.
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i would assume that tomorrow he will have something up his sleeve. >> thank you for that. >> lets get back to kasie hunt right now. you got new reactions from capitol hill. >> that's right, this was a statement that we were keeping an eye for, a joined statement from senator john mccain and lyndsey graham. it is just in so i am going to read it for you. the measures announced by the obama administration areong over due but ultimately they are a small prize for the russians to pay. so one thing that's remarkable about this statement there is no criticism for president obama overall foreign policy. we saw from paul ryan is going to come to represent tone ing t
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line in the new trump administration and they simply said these actions are over due. they also say again, they want to lead this congressional effort for bipartisan sanctions. this is what you want to watch for the next six or so months. how this plays into a potential split in the republican party of how aggressively to go after russia and are senator mccain and graham and others find themselves in the other side of president-elect trump. i think already, you are starting to see democrats, chuck schumer, talking about how president-elect trump should not roll back these newly announced sanctions and should not let these russians who were named in the release back into the
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country. that's potential flash point. you can see some conflicts tensions between in coming president trump and some of these hawkish republicans if you with were to take action. >> thank you, kasie hunt. >> once again we got a president-elect trump who has said that he was not convinced that russia was behind the hack. and despite 16 or 17 or 18 federal agencies saying so. >> what do you think we can exct? >> that's going to be a measure response. that's going to really depends in the type of relationship that russia wants to build with donald trump. there will be some as hans was reporting of a reciprocal
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expulsion of american diplomats operating in moscow. we can expect that to happen and some other measures that'll target america's interests. the more interesting thing is what is russia going to do in some of the soft spots this the united states engaged in and that includes places like iraq and syria and ukraine. that's more vague escalation if they decide to increase some of the pressures there in terms of what the u.s. and russia is trying to do. that's what the calculation of the relationship is going to be factoring in. they're fwoing to logoing to lo say, and certainly favor able opinions of vladimir putin. so that remains to be seen in
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terms of which measure russia is going to take. >> all right, robert costa, washington post, national reporter. you have been covering donald trump and know him better than a lot of reporters. in terms of the fight that the president-elect trump may want to pick. he spent a lot of time talking about spending billions of dollars on rebuilding this country's infrastructure. do you think the first big fight he would pick with members of his own party would be over our policy regarding russia. he may not choose to fight but the fight may come to president trump early next year. >> when you look at trump's kitchen cabinet, it is general flynn would be running the nsa adviser and the white house. he's had favorable view towards putin and russia and rex tillerson of the nominee of the
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secretary of state who had a cozy relationship and exxon mobile. those people around trump when it comes to russia, you don't see trump citing senator mccain or don't see senator graham or senator mccain. when asked about senator graham, he almost shrugged it off. he said, senator graham ran against me in the primary. isn't it time, in so many words torques move on? so trump doesn't want to have this fight. but the hawks in his party, they want to have it. we're going to have a quick break here on msnbc. when we come back, we'll continue to talk about this breaking news, president obama announcing sanctions over russia against the election hacks. pneumococcal pneumonia. it's a serious disease. my doctor said the risk is greater now that i'm over 50! yeah...ya-ha...
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breaking news, we have another picture in of one of the four individuals sanctioned by the u.s. government named, i should say here. this is another man wanted by the fbi, alexsey belan, one of the four who, according to the u.s. government, was behind the election hacks. all four of them, we should note, from russia. in addition to those four, president obama announcing a short time ago via executive order that 35 diplomats would be expelled. they have until noon sunday to get out of the country. two compounds, one in maryland, one in new york, two compounds
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will be shut down. those are compounds largely used by those russian diplomats. andrea mitchell reporting earlier in the hour that they were largely recreational. sanctions as well. some senior officials and military intelligence also adding some cyber defense tools to u.s. companies, we're told. that is what we know at this point. again, there has been some indication there may be or may have been some covert action as well. we heard a short time ago from vladimir putin through a spokesperson that they are planning some sort of retaliation for our retaliation. nbc's matt bradley joins us now from london with more reaction from russia to all this. matt, what are you hearing? >> well, craig, it's the same thing that you mentioned. this statement from the kremlin, they're saying they're not sure if these sanctions will be efficient because obama, of course, is leaving the white
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house in three weeks. they're considering retaliation, and they say it's going to be adequate. and they said this is another sign of washington's aggressive foreign policy. of course, this all hews to the official diploc language you would expect from the kremlin. i also want to show you a tweet that just came out of the russian embassy here in london, and it's very interesting. it says that president obama expels 35 russian diplomats in cold war de javu. everybody will be ready to see this hapless administration and there is a duck with the word "lame" over it. pretty cute until you realize this is from a russian embassy here in london. this is the what the diplomats have been engaging in. it's been playing into putin's hand saying this is almost like
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a schoolyard fight and putin is getting the upper hand. z >> thank you, jeremy bash and leon hough, thank you both for being with me. jeremy, let me start with you, if i can. the response to the hacking, proportional? >> proportional, also smart, tough and pretty aggressive and hard to reverse. i think this is important, because the president today laid out the factual predicate that, in fact, we have them dead to rights. we know precisely by name which officials of which intelligence agencies conducted the hacking against our election, against our democracy, and we've now expelled 35 of their intelligence officers and their families. we have put under sanction their two major intelligence agencies, the gru and the fsb. so what's the next administration going to do? they're going to let back in the united states intelligence
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officers? they're going to reopen these russian intelligence facilities? they're going to unsanction russian intelligence agencies? this is a pretty smart move by this administration to make the unassailable, factual basis clear and take some action. >> how real is the worry that once there is a response from russia that we are going to find ourselves involved in some sort of -- mired in some sort of cyber war? >> well, the real concern has been not having done these earlier. there was discussion within the obama administration, the evidence was collected and was there to not have done this before the election. at that time the decision was made to not try to interfere or be perceived as interfering, but it was considering grievous enough to have to take some action. this also sends a message to
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china and others not to engage in cyber warfare. donald trump, having already raised the rhetoric and been so buddy pal with putin, it really boxes in trump and forces him to have to consider intelligence matters for what they are, which is legitimate, evidence-based decision making rather than just the political position he or his operation would like to take. >> you work for the administration. i assume that you still have relationships with folks there in the white house. do you get the sense that there is some regret that they did not, at least, do some of this sooner? >> it would have had a less political, perhaps, pall. but if you think about it, this is right around the time the fbi had discussed some e-mail situations publicly, so at this point, hindsight is 20/20, but it's considered a big enough challenge to national security that we needed to take action even in a lame duck session. very interesting, usually you don't see presidents this late
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in their term taking action against a foreign country which should be an indication to the american people how serious these matters are and the threat that really faces not just national security apparatus but also russia was behind the attack on sony and others, so that russia perception presented by the trump campaign is really not as benign as the new administration would like us to think, really are interested in subverting a lot of aspects of american culture and american national security. >> jeremy huff, nancy bash, thank you very much. i wish we had more time. i'll see you back here tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. eastern. steve kornacki picking up breaking news coverage right now. >> craig, thanks for that. good afternoon, everybody. i'm steve kornacki live here in new york. topping our agenda right now, retaliation. president obama hitting russia with sanction and see a slew of new measures for alleged involvement in trying to disrupt e

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